Northampton Warlords

Need to change some of the spelling eg Table top Wargames as opposed to Tabletop Wragames

Ancient battles is spelt wrong

Two 40 K sections.

But i'm sure your aware of this so I'll shut up.

Garth

Yes thank you for pointing that out, it is easy to make spelling errors when typing fast! joy of running a club, updating a forum and website, organising a tournament, looking after four year olds, doing the house work etc.. as for the two 40k topics this was because it was put under the the wrong listing and cant be removed at the moment. And I think you will find that the way tabletop has been spelt is in fact the correct grammar !  

Anyway gary when are you going to organise something for the club? I am  sure you are good at multi tasking whilst moving home are you not?

saucer of milk and a table for two perhaps ?

I'm thinking of doing a WW2 campaign using FOW, but with slightly different rules,

But let me move house first.

Garth

PS nothing wrong with Table Top its was WRAgames that was wrong.

yes the wragames was a bit back to front, I have corrected the errors.

A ww2 campaign for Normandy starting with DDAY-1 would be good, it is possible to use firestorm type format for the campaign, I even have a Normandy map for firestorm!

Anyway I thought you are a ninja surely you can handle packing a few boxes and organising  a campaign at the same time  Mr Mayagi will be most disapointed.

 Gary while I have your attention can you drop V a note to let him know we have a new forum please, thats if you have not already of course.

I was talking to V about the FOW rules yesterday and we seemed to agree on problems with some of the rules namely Ambush and Observer sighting, If i run a campaign i would like to change the rules slightly that Ambushes are marked on a map, instead of the defending player just being able to place an ambush where they want within 16 inches. I believe the skill of laying an ambush is knowing where the attacker will come, and if you get it wrong, then tough, you have to move your ambush.

Also with observers. in the game you can simply say "I'm going to target that pak 40 in the woods from the back of a 8 foot table. in my opinion this is unrealistic. the truth is that one of your Shermans starts brewing and everyone takes cover thinking "where the hell did that come from". Its then down to a good observer to look for tell tail signs like muzzle flashes and there should be a dice roll for whether the observer spots the pak 40 hiding in the wood.

Similarly with dust clouds, plumes of smoke, undulations in the landscape, heat haze, etc a observer should have restricted vision specially if he is trying to see across and 8 foot table, so like night fighting rules there should be dice rolls to see if the observer can view anything.

Just some of the ideas i have for changes in the rules if I do a campaign, ideas always welcome.

I'll phone V now.

Garth

hmmm observers normaly have binos and other visual equipment.  In fact any unit could spot a target then radio in for artillary and air support. so not just an observer could spot but also units able to see the target. It also depends on  the possition of the enemy and there ability to hide, but once something like an anti tank gun or heavy machine gun fires theres enough smoke and muzle flash somebody some where would spot it usualy, also bear in mind these are guns using shells not cannons packed with powder then a cannon ball, therefore the smoke would be more revealing than concealing, that said it would depend on where teams that could see the target are,  how far away, anything obstructing vision, etc... I think teams like pak 40 guns should have something in the rules also for camm nets etc.. besides just concealed by woods etc.. but that cam nets are in addition to that concealment. that said the germans are too heavily weighted in there favour as it is and  there has to be a little give and take to balance the game or every german player is going to win anyway unless Nobby is rolling the dice, in wich case people start not wanting to play.

in summary if the gun is in plain view then it can be seen end of ! if the gun is say in a wood or such then concealed this then effects ranging in anyway! but if the gun is a long distance say more than 24" then a skill test to spott but that a spotter who would be better trained and equiped has a 1+ to his skill to spot. the same skill test could also be required for spotting units using camoflauge nets and folage. the ambush rule is pants i agree i have before now had 4 m10s apear behind a platoon of six tanks that had move through the very same part of terrain that the ambush apeared from! total rubish! the ambush should be forced to either withdraw and relocate or be automaticaly sprung! when you have sat in ambushes time and time again freezing your fury bits off, not aloud to sleep, eat, smoke, talk, take a pee,and have smell like your suroundings! etc... I think you soon learn what an ambush is all about and your biscuits brown during the excersise and then your entrenching tool and toilet papper after the excersise too!!!!!! god a bed is heaven after all that !

FoW = noddy goes to WW2 wargames, if you are after a historical simulation, then you are playing the wrong game.

If however you are after a good laugh with a couple of mates over a beer or ten..........then FoW will do fine.

but once something like an anti tank gun or heavy machine gun fires theres enough smoke and muzle flash somebody some where would spot it usualy,

well its a good point but the range of a pak 40 is 1,800 metres, thats well over a mile or indirect over 4 and a half miles.

Next to the dreaded '88', this was Germany's front-line anti-tank gun. With a maximum range of 3,200 yards it was a deadly opponent for allied armor. The 5mm armor shield afforded the crew some measure of protection. In 1944, outnumbered but not outgunned,

German gunners formed 'Pak Fronts', hiding their weapons in ambush and took a tremendous toll of enemy Panzers. This same gun was used in the formidable Pz. Kfw IV tank. This particular PAK 40 was found sitting in front of an American Legion. The Legion members had originally thought it was a French weapon. It operates on black powder to give a realistic punch to 2. Panzer's defensive power.

http://www.2ndpanzerdivision.com/Pak%2040%20Page.htm

The PaK 40 is a 75mm anti tank gun. It is a far superior weapon to its under powered predecessor. With a greatly enhanced range and penetration capability, the PaK 40 is a clear improvement. With the same ability to be dug in and concealed, the it is an even more deadly ambush weapon, perfect for defending a position without having to commit valuable tank forces.

http://www.derelictstudios.net/users/korona/BlitzIIManual/BlitzIIManualMainTemplate.php?page=AxisArtillery§=AxisMenu&subsect=AxsArtMenu

also bear in mind these are guns using shells not cannons packed with powder then a cannon ball, therefore the smoke would be more revealing than concealing,

Surely its the other way round

but if the gun is a long distance say more than 24" then a skill test to spott but that a spotter who would be better trained and equiped has a 1+ to his skill to spot. the same skill test could also be required for spotting units using camoflauge nets and folage.

I agree

Garryth Pen of Retribution at 01:19PM on Jun 30, 2009

but once something like an anti tank gun or heavy machine gun fires theres enough smoke and muzle flash somebody some where would spot it usualy,

 

well its a good point but the range of a pak 40 is 1,800 metres, thats well over a mile or indirect over 4 and a half miles.

 

Next to the dreaded '88', this was Germany's front-line anti-tank gun. With a maximum range of 3,200 yards it was a deadly opponent for allied armor. The 5mm armor shield afforded the crew some measure of protection. In 1944, outnumbered but not outgunned,

German gunners formed 'Pak Fronts', hiding their weapons in ambush and took a tremendous toll of enemy Panzers. This same gun was used in the formidable Pz. Kfw IV tank. This particular PAK 40 was found sitting in front of an American Legion. The Legion members had originally thought it was a French weapon. It operates on black powder to give a realistic punch to 2. Panzer's defensive power.

http://www.2ndpanzerdivision.com/Pak%2040%20Page.htm

 

The PaK 40 is a 75mm anti tank gun. It is a far superior weapon to its under powered predecessor. With a greatly enhanced range and penetration capability, the PaK 40 is a clear improvement. With the same ability to be dug in and concealed, the it is an even more deadly ambush weapon, perfect for defending a position without having to commit valuable tank forces.

http://www.derelictstudios.net/users/korona/BlitzIIManual/BlitzIIManualMainTemplate.php?page=AxisArtillery§=AxisMenu&subsect=AxsArtMenu

 

also bear in mind these are guns using shells not cannons packed with powder then a cannon ball, therefore the smoke would be more revealing than concealing,

Surely its the other way round

yes well on a  6 by 4 foot table  with terrain features upon it would mean that most of the time the pak guns are shooting at a shorter range ( in scale) than 1 mile machine guns even shorter. with these weapons not pushing out so much smoke measn that when you see the smoke its often much closer to the wepon discharging it before it is blown away or breaks down in the air. also less smoke means there is more chance of spotting the muzzle flash  from a machine gun that has a rapid rate of fire. I do agree that the pak would have been hard to spot a majority of the time, but then a well trained, equiped and experienced spotter would be very capable of picking them out its there job! even the common infantry private would have gained experience and devoloped the skill to spot such targets. I think that there has to be a fair balance to this as we all know the Germans had great kit but it still got taken out as the allied forces soon became wise  to thair tactics and counter acted  them. Over all I think that flames of war is a good system to play and like all rules sytems they have to draw the line at some point. the trueth is we are playing a game of toy soldiers not fighting  zee var jah

This is true but if you think that even 88mm guns could be camouflaged well enough for a patrol to pass within 500 yards of them, just thing how well a pak 40 could be concealed.

By the way i believe that 16 inches on the FOW table equals 1000 yards. So a six foot table is over 4 kilometres.

the question is can an observer see 4 kms through smoke, haze, undulations and into woodland to see a pak 40?

Garth

Garth

So Gary, by your ranges:-  4" = 250 yards?

That's one helluva long way for an infantryman to charge into assault - or pistol/flamethrower range.

By ther own admission, the game designers advised that "nowhere in the rules do we designate a ground scale" (FoW p256).

They us a telescopic range format as the basis for an all-arms engagement.

SMG = 4" (25m)

Rifle = 16" (400m)

Artillery = 64+" (6400m+)

Methinks stick with the rules as is. (until we have to fork out £30 for V3!)

Guv.

Exactly what i thought when i had this discussion on the FOW web site. I said that a Tiger coming out of ambush at 16 inches was not credible as it would be almost impossible to hide in the open. I was told that 16inches represented 1000 metres so was indeed possible.

Garth

Guys

The Guv'nor is right. FoW is a good wargame - not a simulation. The rules are designed for quick play and expediency. The whole sliding scale concept needs to be incorporated into your discussion. Also the thread is now well off topic and would be better served under the Tabletop part of the forum in my humble opinion.

Cheers

Nobby